Pat sent me and I presume everyone he knows on Facebook this photo. The story is that Chinese soldiers dressed up as Tibetan monks and caused a riot at a rally. After a quick search it appears this is a photo taken on a movie set. This post has much more detail including the following:
UPDATE – TUES. APRIL 8: The International Campaign for Tibet made a statement via their website that they do not regard this photo as credible evidence of Chinese soldiers disguising themselves as Buddhist monks during unrest in Lhasa last month. They acknowledge that they are in possession of similar images of soldiers carrying monks robes in the Jokhang temple in Lhasa, which were taken during a film shoot in 2001 which involved soldiers appearing as monks.
UPDATE – SUN. APRIL 20: The photo is from the set of "The Touch", starring Michelle Yeoh, shot in Tibet in 2001. This has been confirmed by the films' distribution company, and am waiting to hear about a supporting confirmation from an inside source. Will update soon.
ICT does not regard this photo as credible evidence of Chinese soldiers disguising themselves as Buddhist monks during unrest in Lhasa last month. This image is most likely from a movie set in which soldiers dressed as monks to serve as extras. ICT is in possession of similar images dating from 2001.
The soldiers’ uniforms and the color scheme of the two tricylces in the photo were cited as evidence that antedates the mobs’ riots in Lhasa.
Since you seem to be interested in Tibet, I’d like to refer you to more photos taken in Tibet, this time “before China invaded Tibet” (as some of you in the west would stupidly say so, considering that fact Tibet has been Chinese since the Qing replaced by the Republic of China replaced by the People’s Republic of China).
They are photos taken in days when “some of” your adored the Dalai Lama.
http://news.ifeng.com/photo/history/200805/0501_1398_518552_9.shtml
Your pictures are irrelevant! thought you are going to show us some proof that Tibet was part of China since Qing dynasty but all you pictures are actual Tibetan people living their normal tibetan life. Even the words on the scriptures are in tibetan language, then how the fukc can you say its part of China’s?
…reigned.
Translation here but without the photoes being captioned.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.ifeng.com%2Fphoto%2Fhistory%2F200805%2F0501_1398_518552.shtml&langpair=zh%7Cen&hl=zh-CN&ie=UTF-8
Huolong,
According to your “logic” then, Ireland would have been British for over 700 years, wouldn’t it? That’s about the time the British monarch claimed to “own” Ireland —
Let’s face it, China has decided to wipe out Tibet as a seperate culture and ethnic group. Not to mention what you are doing or will be doing to the Tibetan language.
This should sound very familiar to any Irish folks who may read this. Claiming that the Chinese invasion “liberated” Tibetans from serfdom is interesting — but if the Chinese were so “liberating” then why didn’t you leave after the invasion? I guess it’s alot like how Elizabeth I “liberated” Ireland from Roman Catholicism, isn’t it? You Chinese need to follow up your liberation with a Great Famine to set tyhe Tibetans back to near extinction. But I forget — under Communist rule, China and Tibet both suffered from numerous “Famines” and crop failures created from a centralized economy.
Tibet was NEVER a part of China http://www.unmadeinchina.org/contStd.asp?lang=en&idPag=415
You COMMIS have been brain washed by Hu and his goons!
Mary,
Here, I don’t want to and I don’t need to go back to Chinese dynastic days to prove Tibet was part of China.
A country, a state, and a nation, in their modern senses were born in the Industrial Revolution in West Europe and were later adopted throughout the world. So, before talking about China and Tibet, we have to draw a line that separates the pre-industrialization and modern day concepts.
In 1911, along the West’s political, government, international lines, the Republic of China was created out of the Qing dynasty, with Tibet as part of the Asia’s first republic’s territory and Tibetans as one of the five major nationalities of the Chinese nation. On Taiwan, where ROC still physically exists, its constitution states that Tibet is part of ROC.
In 1949, when the government of the People’s Republic of China was declared and replaced that of Republic of China to represent China, PRC came into being with Tibet as part of China. Government changes do not result in territorial changes.
Mary, you claimed that “Let’s face it, China has decided to wipe out Tibet as a seperate culture and ethnic group. Not to mention what you are doing or will be doing to the Tibetan language.” Could you give me any evidence to prove your claim?
In the 1950s, China’s central government just restored its control over Tibet, not what you called “invasion”. By definition, PRC, which succeeded ROC, did not need to invade its own territory.
You mentioned famines. The last famine is a remote thing in China’s living memory. Chinese food supplies have been stable for dozens of years and we Chinese spend less than anyone else in the world in buying food, both in absolute and relative terms.
You talked about Ireland. Why don’t you continue to talk about Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Quebec, Basque?　If you have window panes, do throw stones into others’ windows, because you can have your windows broken as well.
CAJohn:
Don’t try to be condescending by saying I was brainwashed. I know what I’m thinking about and what I’m doing.
Few citizens like their governments. Neither do we the Chinese. But this doesn’t mean we will not support the Chinese government’s policies and actions in the best interest of China. We do not elect our government. But, there is no other organization the best represents the national interests of our country.
Hulong, how can you say you know about Tibet when the photos you have displayed are so ancient they are barely visible, the captions are what you (or someone) just made up and when have you spoken with the Tibetan people OPENLY AND FREELY? I have and I have seen the torture marks from the Chinese in Lhasa and heard the stories that did not benefit the ones telling them in any way!
You admit that you cannot even CHOOSE your own government and yet call that LIBERTY?? I am aghast at your sorry life and truly, I do feel sorry for you.
You quote the ROC as if they are ‘gods’. They SAID that other countries were part of China, so that made it TRUE? How absurd! They invaded and looted these countries – there were no altruistic values there to “save people” from anything.
If you could see the film footage we get in the west showing the peasants in China TODAY, living in one room and working in factories every day, getting holidays once a year to go home and see their families… And so much more. I am sure you would be horrified – and why don’t you see these films? Because your government TELLS you this is not happening. Can you speak out openly AGAINST your government? No one can even carry a photo of the Dalai Lama without being arrested – is this freedom?
Let’s forget about those photos. I now say “The Dalai Lama had been a ruthless slave owner in Tibet until the 1950s.” Can you prove otherwise? I don’t know what you mean by “torture marks” and non-benefiting stories.
My question for you: You can choose your own governments, but can you choose what your elected governments do when they are in power? You can save your being “aghast” for something else. I don’t think I’m leading a sorry life. I have a good wife, healthy parents, and a profitable business – I’m very happy with my life.
You said nothing meaningful when accusing me of quoting ROC like a God. China’s ownership of Tibet has run from the Qing Dynasty to the People’s Republic of China in an unbroken domesdtsic and international law chain. If considered in a capitalist way, nothing is altruistic. Tibetans are Chinese and they are the brothers and sisters of other Chinese.
You can bet your life that I can also shoot a film telling stories of the poorest families in the wealthy west. What conclusions would you draw from it then? Our government did NOT tell us poverty is not happening. True, we now cannot speak openly against our government. You can, but it’s just speech, which does not necessarily results in something meaningful.
No, I won’t forget about those photos. You were using them as part of your propoganda campaign against the Dalai Lama and the Tibetans in general and now you turn around and childish throw names about! Can you prove your statement about the Dalai Lama – that is more to the point!
In a democracy we can protest openly without recrimination, we can petition and change laws in our governments. The will of the people is what a democracy is all about, but you wouldn’t know that. We can write and say whatever we like and we can challenge the government on decisions, attend parliamentary meetings and object, because we are the ‘owners’ of our own country; the leaders are not!
You are a sad person to believe what you are told and enjoy living in ignorance. All your possessions in this life, won’t go with you when you die, but then you are a Communist (I presume) and therefore there is nothing after death.
Tibetans have the right to say who is their ‘brother or sister’ and they certainly do not believe the Chinese people are, and either does the rest of the world; but again, you would not know as your media is censored and so everything you read.
There is poverty throughout the world, so why did you choose to state that Tibetans ONLY had poverty?
Our “only speech” (as you call it), stopped the war in Vietnam, changed Aboriginal Rights in Australia, is calling world attention to China and what is really happening, investigating Japanese whaling, bringing about the end of the war in Iraq – “only speech” is very powerful and that is what makes the difference between humans and animals.
Freedom of speech is the hallmark of a democracy, but the opposite is true of Communism.
Before everything else, I’d like to thank the owner of this blog for providing such a debating place.
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First of all, Lastly and most importantly, my targeted audience is pippa and other West people, who have biased opinions against China, not the general public of the West, represented by expats in Beijing.
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If you want me to have been there and seen all that in Tibet before the 1950s, then I will have to give up in this debate with you. Because I might have to prove the shortest distance between two points is the straight line that crosses the two points!
Please don’t speak on behalf of our Tibetan brothers and sisters. They are CHINESE citizens as the people in other Chinese regions are. The Dalai Lama is NOT a representive of the Tibetan nation; the government of China’s Tibet Autonomous Region is! We don’t run propanda against the Tibetans in general.
The now seemingly amicable Dalai Lama WAS a feudal slave owner. Here is an argument against China’s rule over Tibet, which, nonetheless, confirmed my statement that he was a slave owner. You should be able find other similar literature in great quantity. And I don’t think I need to reinvent the plane, just to convince you.
“What the history shows is that, given the opportunity, the tendency was for Tibetans to reject Chinese rule or influence. Defending China’s “right” to rule Tibet means, in effect, defending China’s right to impose its control over the population by force. This is often justified by the awfulness of the old Tibetan regime, and it is true that Tibet before 1959 was a desperately poor, disease-ridden society ruled by feudal slave-owners. But the same defence could be made of British, French, Spanish or Dutch colonial conquests in Africa, Asia and Latin America. Almost none of the societies they colonised were ones we would want to see re-established. And the claims of “historical progress” in Tibet seem increasingly difficult to justify.”
I don’t buy your story of democracy. As I see it, Democracy is a game for the richest people and the richest countries. I know (and you don’t need to preach to me) that democracy is a better way of organizing a country’s political interests. But, I wouldn’t be so naive that I believe democracy truly works for the people. It works for the richest part of the population. Governments are run not by the people, but by paymasters who are the wealthiest businesspeople who run powerful corporations. Do I have to tell you that story about the U.S. government and the country’s arms dealers?
I agree with you when you say you own the country. You do, but your ownership of the country depends on how much money you have. The more money you have, the more shares you hold of your country. And if you don’t have any money, you don’t have business in your government.
From your “sad-person-ignorance-Communist” imagination, I can tell that it’s been a long long time ago since you were last posted on what’s happening in China (I mean, the Chinese mainland). Our economy has been capitalistic for as long as I can remember. We in China have laws governing the heritage of wealth. I don’t worry about how my possessions will be handled after my death.
You can put your “are you brothers or sisters of the Han, Mongolian, Uygur, Korean, Russian, Kazakh Chinese?” to the Tibetan citizens of China’s Tibet Autonomous Region. We don’t ask this silly question here in China. Of course they are! Your media is not censored in the way ours is. But, your is also run and written by people who have opinions. For example, Taiwan and Tibet are all parts of China. And yet, it treats the three as different countries. No countries on this Planet officially recognize Tibet or Taiwan as Independent Countries. Mind you: It’s true that some banana republics do have diplomatic ties with the government on the Taiwan Island. But they are dealing with the Government of the Republic of China, NOT Taiwan. Is this what you call uncensored, unbiased media? Also, all the Western governments have established diplomatic ties with China on the basis of, at least, not disputing the status of Taiwan as part of China (PRC or ROC) (Tibet is a remote issue here). This is what your elected government has done. You find it uncomfortable? You can try to talk your government into what you want it to do – e.g. boycotting the 2008 Olympics, sanctioning China, – just because you don’t like Tibet as being part of China? Go and try it and see what your political and corporate rulers will respond.
There is also a linguistic problem here. “China” is a word you use to refer to our country. When we say Zhongguo (you call China), we mean a country with Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang, Tibent, and Taiwan included. When you are pitching Tibetans against Chinese, I have a very weird feeling. If Han Chinese (not Korean, Mongolian, Uygur, etc) is what you mean when you say China or Chinese, please be sure call us Han China or Han Chinese.
I have perfectly good reasons to point that out since we were commenting on a Tibet-related post. What’s wrong with me ?
I don’t buy your “speech-stop-war” story, either. If it does stops, it’s because the people (the wealthiest, richest, the most powerful) who initiated the war for their own gains (and by trickle theory, the masses later) begin to see no good reasons to proceed with it. I don’t believe you can talk your government into doing everything you want it to do, especially where it involves mega-billion dollars worth of oil in the Gulf. Speech is good, but it’s not that good when it falls on deaf ears.
I’m very happy to tell you that China is not a Communistic state. Instead, it’s a capitalistic one, just as yours is, at least economically. China is actually well on course to be like the West more and more, politically and economically. We don’t need you to like it though you must accept it.
China is one of the few countries that have lifted themselves out of general poverty. Except for countries with a population of several millions, (in China, several millions are just for a city, or a district of Beijing City), China is the only one which has achieved this.
In a nutshell, China is coming and others, especially the West countries, whose wealth starts from plundering Third World countries, must make room to accommodate it. You don’t like it? It does not matter to us. You the West has taught us Might is Right and we believe it.
How strange! On one hand you are claiming that the Tibetan people are Chinese and on the other hand you call it the “Tibetan nation”. You also state that you don’t run ‘propoganda against the Tibetans in general’, just the Dalai Lama? Pardon me, but I have lived with the Dalai Lama’s family in Dharamsala and met the Dalai Lama several times and there is nothing at all fake or false about this great person. Your words are meaningless because they are not from your first hand knowledge and mine are.
Your post is very scattered and all over the place.
If I ask a Korean, Mongolian, Tibetan “are you Chinese”? They emphatically deny such a thing – it takes two sides to agree. According to your statement, the USA, Europe and Australia and New Zealand are “banana republics” because they are trying to stop what is happening in Korea, which is backed by China.
China was in no better state when they invaded Tibet, they were poor too and so were many countries in the world. This does not give China the right to illegally invade and take over another country and try to claim it as part of their own.
I have no prejudice against the Chinese people at all, but I will always advocate human rights and nothing will stop the world demanding that China be investigated for human abuse.
What do you call your political system then? If it is not Communism, then you say it’s a Capitalistic society – so what exactly is this? Money for the wealthy, nothing for the poor and a government that dictates. If the west is so dreadful, why would China want to be anything like us? I really appreciate “old China” and the values, religion and respect they had for people… Such a shame it is no more.
You do not understand that in my country we have social security so that everyone receives government benefits in order to eat. You certainly have a strange idea of democracy! It is not about money at all. I am happy for your country that it is making a lot of money, but money means little to me. Care for people of all races means a lot. From the way you write it seems that you believe that money can do anything, but it cannot. Tyrants have been overthrown for human rights again and again throughout history and not for money.
Quite frankly, I don’t care what you “buy” or do not “buy”. The truth is the truth and you cannot refute that.
Pippa, you WERE NOT responding to my previous post. If you do not want to debate with me over each element of my and your statements, our debate will go nowhere.
My post is not scattered and all over the place. Instead, each paragraph is actually in response to your previous post.
Before I get started, let me say that China did not need to “invade” its own territory, e.g. Tibet, to make it part of the country because it had been all along.
Could you please prove:
1) that the current Dalai Lama (in case you don’t know, the Dalai Lama is a Buddhist monk title awarded to one of the two ranking Tibetan Buddhists by the CHINESE Central Government, e.g. the Emperor of the Qing Dynasty before 1911, the Government of ROC before 1949, and the Government of PRC after 1949. Interested in this? When the one you met passed away in the coming years, China will APPOINT a new The Dalai Lama.) WAS NOT a feudal slave owner? Maybe you can get your answer by having your next dinner with Him! ?
2) that along domestic and international law lines, China did not have Tibet as part of it when ROC was created out of the Qing Dynasty and when PRC was created out of ROC? (If you couldn’t and stick with your Tibet-should-go-independent idea and practice it, then you are trying to carve up a country and will be subject to China’s Anti Secession Law.)
Maybe you grew up in a country, e.g. Japan, where only one nationality exists and cannot come to understand that a country can have more than one nationality? According to China’s constitution, China has 56 recognized nationalities (sorry about my misuse of nation in the previous post), which include Tibetans, Uygurs, Koreans, Mongolians, Russians, to name a few you may have heard of. When I said “banana republics” (for your information, Australia and New Zealand are not REPULICS because they have the British Queen as head of their governments), I meant those tiny states which have diplomatic ties with the ROC on Taiwan. We now back up North Korea not out of ideological considerations. Considering the U.S. outright refusal of any attempted Russian military presence on Cuba, China’s patience is extraordinary.
Of course, you cannot afford showing prejudice against the Chinese people just I cannot against ordinary Westerns. Also, when you say “nothing will stop the world demanding that China be investigated for human abuse”, if you meant the Chinese government by the word “China”, it’s perfectly ok. But, do not be mistaken, because we stand with our Government when it defends Tibet or Taiwan against any attempts to take it away from us.
About China’s political and economic systems, what I know about it is that China is a Communist country that has a market economy. Sounds strange? Reality is not black and white. It can be gray. The reason for us to want to be more Western is that we also want to sit on top of the world’s food chain and exploit other smaller and weaker predators, just as your West is doing to the poor and poorest countries, including China. If you really appreciate the Old China and its values and religion, you can find them in China’s Taiwan and Hong Kong. In my opinion, they are more Chinese than the Chinese mainland is, which has been changed by Mao Zedong and its Communist comrades beyond recognition. But, if you appreciate the old China the West can dictate to and boss around, you will be very much disappointed.
In case you don’t know, China also has a version of social security system though it now only covers urban residents and has started to reach rural ones.
Are you sure democracy is not a money thing? Please ask McCain, Obama, and Hillary how much they have spent in their presidential races. True that money cannot do anything; it’s also true that you can do nothing without money. You were oversimplifying the Tyrant-overthrown thing. Explain to me why the U.S. supported Iraq in the war against Iran and later invaded it (the true lexicon meaning of the word INVADE) and overthrew its government though Iraq had been governed by Saddam Husane all along? Before you answer, I quote a key word: oil, which points to money.
Quite frankly, too, the truth has its limits, outside of which it’s meaningless.
**Hulong wrote: Before I get started, let me say that China did not need to “invade” its own territory, e.g. Tibet, to make it part of the country because it had been all along.**
This is where everything that is the truth is being lied about, so there is no point in trying to discuss anything with you, Huolong. You have been “told” that Tibet was part of China and you actually believe that and refuse to listen to historical facts! It was not and never was, part of China.
Please ask a Russian if they believe they are Chinese or a Mongolian!
**Hulong wrote:
Could you please prove:
1) that the current Dalai Lama (in case you don’t know, the Dalai Lama is a Buddhist monk title awarded to one of the two ranking Tibetan Buddhists by the CHINESE Central Government, e.g. the Emperor of the Qing Dynasty before 1911, the Government of ROC before 1949, and the Government of PRC after 1949. Interested in this? When the one you met passed away in the coming years, China will APPOINT a new The Dalai Lama.) WAS NOT a feudal slave owner? Maybe you can get your answer by having your next dinner with Him! ?**
AFTER the Chinese invasion of 1959, the ROC decided to set up the Panchen Lama and call him the “other Dalai Lama”. The Panchen Lama was poisoned in Bejing in the late 1990s from memory – he had refused to ever be called the Dalai Lama.
Now you might be interested in the truth of how the Dalai Lama has been chosen since the inception of the First Dalai Lama. The Dalai (the name being granted by the Mongolian King) Lama is found through a process of divination and the child must recognise his own belongings from his previous life and pass rigorous tests in order to make sure that he is the Dalai Lama. This Dalai Lama came from a very poor family of farmers and was seen in a dream by His Holiness Ling Rinpoche who was the previous Dalai Lama’s Tutor. A group of Lamas set out from Lhasa to Amdo province and they changed clothes with the lay people who were travelling with them to ‘fool’ the young boy of four years of age. So while the men who attended the horses wore Lama’s robes and ate dinner in the house, the young boy slipped out into the stables and spent his time with the men attending the horses, asking many questions and begging to be taken back to Lhasa to live in the monastery there – he recognised His Holiness Ling Rinpoche even though he did not wear the Lama’s robes and knew all about him.
Everyone is aware that China thinks the Dalai Lama is a political figure and that they intend to place their substitute as the next Dalai Lama and everyone is also aware that no one will listen to him. Once again your political indoctrination shows itself as I am very aware of the entire system and not at all “interested” in your propoganda lies.
Of course His Holiness Dalai Lama was not and is not a “feudal slave owner”. Can you prove that he was?
**Hulong wrote:
2) that along domestic and international law lines, China did not have Tibet as part of it when ROC was created out of the Qing Dynasty and when PRC was created out of ROC? (If you couldn’t and stick with your Tibet-should-go-independent idea and practice it, then you are trying to carve up a country and will be subject to China’s Anti Secession Law.) **
I suggest you do some homework and find out for yourself! You don’t believe me, so why ask me. NEVER has Tibet been a part of China and they will not remain so. It does not worry me one iota if I am ‘subject to China’s Anti Secession Laws” – I’m a free citizen of a democratic country and can say what I think.
China is terrified of the UN and will not allow them in there to see just what they have done.
The cases of rape, torture, imprisonment for saying anything ‘anti-Chinese’ is all documented and the medical proof is all there with the Tibetans who have escaped from Chinese occupied Tibet. Some of these have been secretly filmed and we have seen these films in the west when the reporters got out with them. This is not just my word, but it is just your word.
Why do the Chinese want to keep the Tibetans from leaving and why would these ‘feudal slaves’ want to leave if China had made Tibet a better place? Why are the Chinese so afraid of His Holiness Dalai Lama that it is forbidden to carry even a photo of him? One Buddhist Monk (as the Dalai Lama calls himself) has an entire nation terrified of him – very strange!
Your arguments are purile in the extreme and really I cannot be bothered wasting my time answering such childish and uninformed posts. You have been indoctrinated heavily and I feel sorry for you, but I don’t feel sorry enough for you to keep on with this as it is not a debate, it is just your indoctrinated propoganda slinging match.
Pippa, what else do you think the current Dalai Lama was, if not a slave owner, in a place he ruled where “the greater part of the rural population—some 700,000 of an estimated total population of 1,250,000—were serfs”?
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles9/Parenti_Tibet.htm
“The Dalai Lama himself lent support to this idealized image of Tibet with statements such as: “Tibetan civilization has a long and rich history. The pervasive influence of Buddhism and the rigors of life amid the wide open spaces of an unspoiled environment resulted in a society dedicated to peace and harmony. We enjoyed freedom and contentment.” [5] In fact, Tibet’s history reads a little differently. In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan created the first Grand Lama, who was to preside over all the other lamas as might a pope over his bishops. Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet. Here is quite a historical irony: the first Dalai Lama was installed by a Chinese army.
Religions have had a close relationship not only with violence but with economic exploitation. Indeed, it is often the economic exploitation that necessitates the violence. Such was the case with the Tibetan theocracy. Until 1959, when the Dalai Lama last presided over Tibet, most of the arable land was still organized into religious or secular manorial estates worked by serfs. Even a writer like Pradyumna Karan, sympathetic to the old order, admits that “a great deal of real estate belonged to the monasteries, and most of them amassed great riches. . . . In addition, individual monks and lamas were able to accumulate great wealth through active participation in trade, commerce, and money lending.” [8] Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries went to the higher-ranking lamas, many of them scions of aristocratic families, while most of the lower clergy were as poor as the peasant class from which they sprang. This class-determined economic inequality within the Tibetan clergy closely parallels that of the Christian clergy in medieval Europe.
Along with the upper clergy, secular leaders did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. He also was a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet. [9] Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some of its Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.” [10] In fact, it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order and catch runaway serfs. [11]
In 1953, the greater part of the rural population—some 700,000 of an estimated total population of 1,250,000—were serfs. Tied to the land, they were allotted only a small parcel to grow their own food. Serfs and other peasants generally went without schooling or medical care. They spent most of their time laboring for the monasteries and individual high-ranking lamas, or for a secular aristocracy that numbered not more than 200 families. In effect, they were owned by their masters who told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. A serf might easily be separated from his family should the owner send him to work in a distant location. Serfs could be sold by their masters, or subjected to torture and death. [14]
Indeed the approval of the Kuomintang government was needed to validate the choice of the present-day Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. When the young Dalai Lama was installed in Lhasa, it was with an armed escort of Chiang Kaishek’s troops and an attending Chinese minister, in accordance with centuries-old tradition. [28] What really bothered the Tibetan lords and lamas was that these latest Chinese were Communists. It would be only a matter of time, they were sure, before the Communists started imposing their egalitarian and collectivist solutions upon the highly privileged theocracy.
The Communists Overthrow Feudalism
Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese in Tibet after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They built the only hospitals that exist in the country, and established secular education, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. They constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa. They also put an end to floggings, mutilations, and amputations as a form of criminal punishment. [33]
The charges made by the Dalai Lama himself about Chinese mass sterilization and forced deportation of Tibetans have remained unsupported by any evidence. Both the Dalai Lama and his advisor and youngest brother, Tendzin Choegyal, claimed that “more than 1.2 million Tibetans are dead as a result of the Chinese occupation.” [38] No matter how often stated, that figure is puzzling. The official 1953 census—six years before the Chinese crackdown—recorded the entire population of Tibet at 1,274,000. Other estimates varied from one to three million. [39] Other census counts put the ethnic Tibetan population within the country at about two million. If the Chinese killed 1.2 million in the early 1960s then whole cities and huge portions of the countryside, indeed almost all of Tibet, would have been depopulated, transformed into a killing field dotted with death camps and mass graves—of which we have seen no evidence. The Chinese military force in Tibet was not big enough to round up, hunt down, and exterminate that many people even if it had spent all its time doing nothing else.”
Pippa, neither can I see any point of continuing “debate” with you.
I’ve clearly seen that you are a typical member of the overseas forces that are hell bent on Balkanizing China (China means a country that has Tibet as part of it. We define what China means, not you.) that we the general Chinese bear extreme hatred against.
You are lying when you said you “do not have prejudice against the general Chinese”. When you say “Tibet never was and will not be part of China”, you’re insulting, provoking and challenging the Chinese public.
China’s Anti-Cessation Law will be applicable to anyone who challenges China’s constitutional and territorial integrity. This application will be backed up by China’s law enforcers and the People’s Liberation Army which have the entire Chinese people behind them.
If you ask Tibetan, Uygur, Korean, Han, Mongolian Chinese, “Should Tibet be independent”, 95% of them will think you’re asking a weird question and their answer will be of course “No”. I advise you not be so naïve to believe that the Chinese citizens can be brainwashed by their Government.
Do not be so naïve that you believe only China has windows. If you smash China’s with stones, I can do that too to your windows. I don’t think I need to repeat what the Whites did to the natives when they colonized New World and what is and was happening in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.
DO NOT go back to China’s Dynasty days when talking about whether Tibet was and is part of China. WE ARE NOW TALKING IN A MODERN SENSE ABOUT MODERN INTERNTATIONAL AND DOMESTIC LAWS THAT YOU CANNOT FAIL TO UNDERSTAND.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
I. Constitution of the Republic of China
http://www.gio.gov.tw/info/news/constitution.htm
(Adopted by the National Assembly on December 25, 1946, promulgated by the National Government on January 1, 1947, and effective from December 25, 1947.)
“Article 26. The National Assembly shall be composed of the following delegates:
…
3. The number of delegates to be elected from Tibet shall be prescribed by law;
…
Article 64. Members of the Legislative Yuan shall be elected in accordance with the following provisions:
…
3. Those to be elected from Tibet;
…
Article 91. The Control Yuan shall be composed of Members who shall be elected by Provincial and Municipal Councils, the local Councils of Mongolia and Tibet, and Chinese citizens residing abroad. Their numbers shall be determined in accordance with the following provisions:
…
Eight Members for Tibet; and
…
Article 120. The self-government system of Tibet shall be safeguarded.”
II. The Agreement of the Central People’s Government and the Local Government of Tibet on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet (Beijing, 23 May 1951)
http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/ceun/eng/gyzg/xizang/t424244.htm
“The Tibetan ethnic group is one of the ethnic groups with a long history within the boundaries of China and, like many other ethnic groups, it has performed its glorious duty in the course of the creation and development of our great motherland.”
“4. The central authorities will not alter the existing political system in Tibet. The central authorities also will not alter the established status, functions and powers of the Dalai Lama. Officials of various ranks shall hold office as usual.”
“6. By the established status, functions and powers of the Dalai Lama and of the Panchen Erdeni are meant the status, functions and powers of the 13th Dalai Lama and of the 9th Panchen Erdeni when they were in friendly and amicable relations with each other.”
Article 30. The administrative division of the People’s Republic of China is as follows: (1) The country is divided into provinces, autonomous regions and municipalities directly under the Central Government;
….
Hi, please delete this comment and one of the duplicates.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a Buddha! He is Chenrezig, Buddha of Compassion. His name means “Ocean of Wisdom”, not “Ocean” – see how you twist every little thing you can?
All your lies and Chinese bullying and propoganda mean nothing to those who know and understand their own mind/heart. I don’t hate the Chinese people and I am not even angry with them, but I will never approve of human violation.
So go away, little Huolong because you nothing but a bunch of words that you cannot back up with anything and all the words in the world cannot fail to see the incredible actions, love and compassion that the Dalai Lama and many other Tibetans have. The Dalai won the Noble Peace Prize because of his amazing patience and non-retaliation towards your country.
Think you are right, it doesn’t matter.
China is only one small dot on this planet and the rest of the world does not approve of what China is doing.
Call me what you want, you are only a child, obviously. Please don’t bother to reply to this as you don’t understand how to debate, only how to promote propoganda.
I now see that you can no longer say anything meaningful other than repeating what you have been brought up to believe in – lies about the past and future of Tibet.
Reasons:
1. I just quote, in a verifiable way, an iota of what Your Holiness truly did in Tibet before the 1950s. You chose not to see it.
2. I also quote a constitutional and legal reason why Tibet is part of China. You chose not to see it.
You repeatedly accused me of being puerile and childish. If being mature and adultish means choosing not to see facts, I’d rather be happy to remain a “child”.
Maybe you don’t hate the Chinese people, but we don’t like you.
Frankly, we do not think we need Your Holiness’s patience and non-retaliation. Next time when you have dinner with Him, tell him to turn violent – we don’t care about it.
If China, the world’s most populous country, the fourth largest economy and the fourth largest trader, is a small dot on Planet, then the world’s big dots are numbered at only three.
Nobel Peace Prize for Your Holiness, a past slave owner and a man who fermented violence in Lhasa this March! My Lord!
Comment:
I now see that you can no longer say anything meaningful other than repeating what you have been brought up to believe in – lies about the past and future of Tibet.
** Being Australian, I have not been brought up to believe in anything but a free-thinking democracy, unlike you.
Reasons:
1. I just quote, in a verifiable way, an iota of what Your Holiness truly did in Tibet before the 1950s. You chose not to see it.
** No, you quote Chinese propoganda.
2. I also quote a constitutional and legal reason why Tibet is part of China. You chose not to see it.
** Yes, YOU see, the rest of the world does not and they are taking action.
You repeatedly accused me of being puerile and childish. If being mature and adultish means choosing not to see facts, I’d rather be happy to remain a “child”.
** You are certainly proving that you like to be a child.
Maybe you don’t hate the Chinese people, but we don’t like you.
** That is to be expected, because I won’t be indoctrinated by you.
Frankly, we do not think we need Your Holiness’s patience and non-retaliation. Next time when you have dinner with Him, tell him to turn violent – we don’t care about it.
** The world needs all the patience and non-retaliation it can get. Ha! The Dalai Lama could not and would not, ever even think violently and that’s what the angry Chinese cannot understand.
If China, the world’s most populous country, the fourth largest economy and the fourth largest trader, is a small dot on Planet, then the world’s big dots are numbered at only three.
** And what three would they be?
Nobel Peace Prize for Your Holiness, a past slave owner and a man who fermented violence in Lhasa this March! My Lord!
** More childish fantasies. You really don’t have a clue as to what you are talking about, but it’s nice to know that you believe in the Lord.
Do you accuse the Catholic Church of the same things now that it refuses to acknowledge the “Bishop” that the Chinese government CHOSE and the Pope said ‘NO’ to? Oh, I forgot, they once had a serfdom too, didn’t they? But the worst serfdom in history is that of China’s and it continues under a RED BANNER called Communism. My how terrified you all are about the Olympics Games and look at the world support for the Tibetans as the torch travelled the world with your government’s “guards” trying to run next to the torch bearer.
GO AWAY – You’re boring!
SOME TRUE FACTS:
Tibet situation update and please check http://www.tibet.net
This is to inform you that because of the overwhelming workload we are unable to update our website on a regular basis. We would therefore like to request you that for updates on the current situation in Tibet please check our CTA website http://www.tibet.net
We would like to take this opportunity to Thank everyone in the UK and other parts of the world for all their show of concern and support for the just cause of Tibet and the Tibetan people, who despite all the risks to their lives under the Chinese rule have shown to the world in the past few weeks how much they regard His Holiness the Dalai Lama and cherish freedoms that people in the free world take for granted. We appreciate the support we have received also from many Chinese people and have seen that through better awareness and information more and more Chinese are showing great respect to His Holiness and also admire his non-violent Middle Way Approach to resolve the Tibet issue that takes into consideration the long-term stability and interest of both the Tibetan and Chinese peoples. We hope that just like these enlightened Chinese, the current Chinese leadership will also have the courage and wisdom to respond positively to His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s peaceful initiatives, which will only help to improve China’s own international image and standing in the world.
The Tibetan people, like the rest of the world and the Chinese people also want happiness and do not want suffering.
We hope the international community, lead by the UN, and all the major countries will give due importance to human lives instead of to temporary economic gains when dealing with China. If the current trend of many countries bowing down to China’s pressure continues then we fear for the future of humanity as a whole. What is happening in Tibet is not “an internal affair of China”; it is a part of the global problem.
Even the former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in her autobiography has said, “China claim to Tibet is dubious on historical grounds”, and she has expressed fear for the survival of the Tibetan people and their culture as a result of the massive influx of Chinese settlers in Tibet.
Time is running out for Tibet and the Tibetan people. In view of the present crisis in Tibet, we urgently appeal to the UN and the International community to:
Immediately dispatch independent fact finding delegations to Tibet to let the world know the truth;
Immediately persuade China to allow free press to visit and cover the whole of Tibet;
Immediately urge China to end the brutal killings in the whole of Tibet;
Immediately urge China to release all the Tibetans arrested and imprisoned;
Immediately urge China to allow international medical teams, such as Red Cross and Medicines Sans Frontiers to take care of injured Tibetans, who are too scared to visit hospitals for fear of being arrested;
Immediately urge China to allow free movement of people and provide access to daily needs, such as food and water.
For more information please visit the Tibetan Solidarity Committee website http://www.stoptibetcrisis.net
We pray for peace in Tibet and the world.
In haste,
The Office of Tibet, London
http://www.tibet.net/en/flash/2008/0808/01A0808.html
Update on Tibet Demonstrations, 1 August 2008
Friday, 1 August 2008, 3:17 p.m.
——————————————————————————–
Dharamshala: Update on Tibet Demonstrations, 1 August 2008 Last updated 4 p.m. (IST)
Karze (Ch: Ganzi) County, Karze “TAP”, Kham Province (incorporated into the Chinese province of Sichuan) – A series of peaceful protests still being staged by the youth at the county government office
On 17 July, Yonten Gyatso, a 19-year-old nun from Dhargye Yetsag Nang village in Karze county, staged a peaceful protest at the county government office. She was severely beaten and arrested by the People’s Armed Police (PAP).
On 15 July, Kunsang Tsering, a 22-year-old monk from Dhargye Langna monastery in Karze county, undertook a peaceful protest in front of the county Public Security Bureau (PSB) office. He was shot during his arrest by the PAP. Whether he is dead or injured is yet to be confirmed.
On 22 June, Sherab Gyaltsen(36) from Sheling Dha village and Nyilu(35) from Gyurgha village, both in Karze county, were severely beaten and arrested when they carried out a peaceful protest at the county government office.
On 21 June, Nyima Tashi(18) from Sheling village in Karze county was arrested for shouting slogans at the county government office.
On 19 June, Lobsang Tsewang(30) from Tsoshi village in Karze county staged a peaceful protest at the county government office. He was severely beaten and arrested by the PAP.
On 14 June, Jampa Tashi(24) from Tsangkha village in Karze county was severely beaten when he shouted slogans at the county government office and then arrested by the PAP.
In June, Ngawang Tashi or Ngagha(18) from Jesang Dha village in Karze county was arrested by the PAP for peacefully protesting at the county government office.
MORE FACTS – HOW MANY FROM AROUND THE WORLD DO YOU WANT?
****************************************
US RESOLUTION CONDEMNS CHINA’S HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE IN TIBET
Friday, 1 August 2008, 9:01 a.m.
——————————————————————————–
Dharamshala: Expressing concerns over the fate of Tibetans still languishing in prisons, the US House of Representatives approved a resolution on Wednesday urging the Chinese government to enter into direct negotiations with His Holiness the Dalai Lama over the future of Tibet, The Irrawady reported Thursday.
The speaker of the US House of Representative, Nancy Pelosi said: “The dialogue between the Chinese government and representatives of His Holiness the Dalai Lama has gone nowhere. Thousands of peaceful Tibetans still languish in prisons in the aftermath of the protests that began in March.”
In exchange for the privilege of hosting the Olympic games, the Chinese government made commitments on freedom of the press, human rights and the environment, Pelosi said, but the commitments have been violated repeatedly and blatantly.
Following the Chinese government’s clampdown on peaceful Tibetan protestors across many areas in Tibet from 10 March, US Speaker Nancy Pelosi (R) meets His Holiness the Dalai Lama in Dharamshala to express sympathy and support for Tibetan people, during her visit to India, on 21 March 2008/File Photo: Sangjey Kep
Speaker Pelosi strongly condemned the Chinese government for its suppression of peaceful protestors in Tibet and human rights violation of its own people in China.
“Chinese authorities have stepped up so-called ‘patriotic education’ campaigns that require Tibetan Buddhists, regardless of their true thoughts, to publicly denounce the Dalai Lama,” she said.
The local communist government in Karze (Ch: Ganzi) County, Karze “TAP”, Kham (incorporated into Chinese Province of Sichuan), has ordered sweeping purge of Tibetan monasteries.
Under this draconian regulation, senior monks and reincarnate lamas will be subjected to “patriotic education” and failing to carry out the orders will be “stripped of their post and imprisoned”.
Monks, who refuse to change their thinking in line with official demands, will be expelled and jailed.
“Religious activities will be halted” in those monasteries where a substantial percentage of monks involved in this year’s peaceful protests- a figure ranging from ten to 30 per cent.
The house resolution urged China to end human rights abuses, honour its commitments for freedom of the press and freedom of movement ahead of the Olympics
MORE FROM THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
By the way, the population of Tibet was SIX MILLION people, not ONE MILLION!
*********************************************
McCain Meets Dalai Lama, Calls On China To Release Prisoners
Published: Friday, 25 July, 2008
Republican presidential candidate, Sen. John McCain,
R-Ariz., right, talks with reporters during a news conference
with the Dalai Lama on Friday in Aspen. (Carolyn Kaster/AP)
Aspen, CO, USA, 25 July 2008 (By John Colson, The Aspen Times) – U.S. Sen. John McCain paused in his ongoing run for the presidency on Friday to trade a few pleasantries in Aspen with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and to urge China to release Tibetan political prisoners and improve its record in human rights.
The Dalai Lama, in turn, praised McCain’s “genuine concern about the democracy and human right and religious freedom and environment issue in China in general and in particular in Tibet’s case.â€
After meeting with the Dalai Lama, McCain’s motorcade returned to the airport to fly the candidate out and get him to a 5:30 p.m. speech to Hispanic military veterans in Denver.
The Dalai Lama, meanwhile, participated in a panel discussion at the Aspen Institute’s Greenwald Pavillion.
McCain said the Dalai Lama “represents the profound desire of millions of Tibetan people for basic dignity and human rights. His nonviolence approach, his lifelong work of seeking common ground across cultural and religious divides are an inspiration to all mankind.â€
McCain said he has been disappointed by China’s public accusations that the Dalai Lama was behind recent protests in Tibet against Chinese rule (China invaded Tibet in the 1950s, driving the Dalai Lama into exile in India, and have ruled the small nation ever since.)
“Such rhetoric doesn’t serve the cause of peaceful change and reconciliation,†McCain said. “I urge the Chinese leaders to engage in talks … with His Holiness’ representatives in addressing the just grievances of the Tibetan people, and I urge the Chinese government to release Tibetan political prisoners, account for Tibetans who have disappeared since the protest in March, and engage in meaningful dialogue in genuine autonomy for Tibet.â€
While the U.S. welcomes good relations with China, McCain said, “it does no service to the Chinese government, and certainly no service to the people of China, for the United States and other democracies to pretend that the suppression of rights in China does not concern us. It does, will and must concern us.â€
The Dalai Lama, speaking after McCain, said his “basic commitment is promotion of human value. That means human compassion, human affection. It is, I believe, the biological factor. We need that. This body come from mother, and mother’s affection, mother’s compassion is, I think, the most important experience in our life.â€
His other missions are to promote “secular ethics†and to encourage “religious harmony,†he said, as well as to proclaim to the world about the repression of the Tibetan people and culture.
Thank you very much for letting me know how your propaganda works.
……………………..
I now see that you can no longer say anything meaningful other than repeating what you have been brought up to believe in – lies about the past and future of Tibet.
** Being Australian, I have not been brought up to believe in anything but a free-thinking democracy, unlike you.
A1: So we are on almost the same time zone. Good.
A: Certainly you have. Democracy has nothing to do with your dreamed Tibet’s independence: One is a way of governing a country and the other is sovereignty.
Reasons:
1. I just quote, in a verifiable way, an iota of what Your Holiness truly did in Tibet before the 1950s. You chose not to see it.
** No, you quote Chinese propoganda.
A: If you continue to choose not to see it, then I can as well say what you are saying is also propaganda.
2. I also quote a constitutional and legal reason why Tibet is part of China. You chose not to see it.
** Yes, YOU see, the rest of the world does not and they are taking action.
A: I thought you grew up in a country where law and constitution are respected.
You repeatedly accused me of being puerile and childish. If being mature and adultish means choosing not to see facts, I’d rather be happy to remain a “child”.
** You are certainly proving that you like to be a child.
A: You are proving how an “adult” like you can be opinionated.
Maybe you don’t hate the Chinese people, but we don’t like you.
** That is to be expected, because I won’t be indoctrinated by you.
A: So you now come clean. Good.
Frankly, we do not think we need Your Holiness’s patience and non-retaliation. Next time when you have dinner with Him, tell him to turn violent – we don’t care about it.
** The world needs all the patience and non-retaliation it can get. Ha! The Dalai Lama could not and would not, ever even think violently and that’s what the angry Chinese cannot understand.
A: This is a lie. HE escaped from Tibet after a military crackdown after His armies ambushed PLA units and tried destabilize Tibet every time when China has something to celebrate or enjoy itself.
If China, the world’s most populous country, the fourth largest economy and the fourth largest trader, is a small dot on Planet, then the world’s big dots are numbered at only three.
** And what three would they be?
A: I must say this is a stupid question.
Nobel Peace Prize for Your Holiness, a past slave owner and a man who fermented violence in Lhasa this March! My Lord!
** More childish fantasies. You really don’t have a clue as to what you are talking about, but it’s nice to know that you believe in the Lord.
A: The Nobel Peace Prize is the cheapest when it is used as a propaganda tool. It is when awarded to the Dalai Lama.
Do you accuse the Catholic Church of the same things now that it refuses to acknowledge the “Bishop” that the Chinese government CHOSE and the Pope said ‘NO’ to?
A: What do you mean by this question? China runs its own Catholic churches and chooses their own bishops. This is how we do things. What others do does not mean we have to do the same. Muslims do not eat pork, why do you eat?
Oh, I forgot, they once had a serfdom too, didn’t they?
A: Your history teacher did a good job! Did s/he also tell you that Religion created one of the darkest periods in the world?
But the worst serfdom in history is that of China’s and it continues under a RED BANNER called Communism.
A: You must be dreaming things! No sensible individuals in China think the Government is practising Communism. How strange! You know better than we do, though we live here?
My how terrified you all are about the Olympics Games and look at the world support for the Tibetans as the torch travelled the world with your government’s “guards” trying to run next to the torch bearer.
A: The Games starts in seven days. It will be a joyous party for all the people who love sports and you, trying to gatecrash this happy party and wondering why China, a cheap country, should host this event, will be gnashing your teeth because you failed every attempt to disrupt this happy party. You are glorifying the trouble-makers and you succeed in being further disliked by the Chinese public.
GO AWAY – You’re boring!
A: If I’m not mistaken, only the owner of this blog can tell me to go away, not you. Do you own it? If you do, I will leave and will never return.
Pippa, why didn’t read carefully the paragraph I quoted? It’s talking about before the 1950. The more Tibetans are made and born later.
The Dalai Lama is a Buddha?! Does a Buddha lie and suppress religious freedom? Pippa, u should ask the Dalai Lama what he had done to his people, especially the Dorje Shugden group, u’d be shocked by ur findings.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=qXqAY20zAXY&feature=related
They were extras for a film. The photo has become an example of, um, yellow journalism at its best.
Look at the photo: Do the soldiers look tense as if they are about to go into action?
Do you see any weapons?
Would they go into action unarmed?
Now think: would be assembling covert operatives out on a public street in full view of, say, press photographers?
If you dressed up your covert operatives like “enemy” monks, wouldn’t your riot police have trouble which heads to bash and which to leave alone?
Note too: none of the footage shown on Chinese Central Television showed monks or nuns committing acts of violence. If Beijing is really so anti-religious and atheism-loving, wouldn’t they be giving maximum air time to such footage?